thinset for cement board to plywood

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In Episode 4 of Ask Danny, Im talking with my longtime friend and drywall expert Mark Rutherford The Drywall Guru.. You need near 100% contact between the hardibacker and the underlying plywood, or the hardibacker will flex and cause your tiles to pop or crack. If you do not like something or have concerns, you definitely were right in piping up and saying something to them. Precut and fit all the cement board and then lift all of the cement boards out. 2022 Todays Homeowner Media. Mix more thin-set mortar and, using a drywall knife, cover the taped joints with a thin layer, much as you would do when mudding drywall joints. How to Install Cement Board for Tile Projects, Patio Tiles: How to Build a Patio With Ceramic Tile, Build an Outdoor Table With Tile Top and Steel Base, Garage Floor Resurfacing: Fix a Pitted Garage Floor, How to Remove Paint from Concrete and Other Stains, How to Build and Pour Your Own Modern Concrete Patio, How to Build a Deck Over a Concrete Patio, How to Move Large Rocks: Tips for Hauling Heavy Stones and Concrete Block, How to Cover a Concrete Patio With Pavers, Laminate Repair Tips: Reglue Loose Laminate, Renew Your Concrete Patio: How to Stain Concrete, How to Choose and Use Concrete Fasteners, Masonry Screws, We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer). However, a mortared system will be more rigid, potentially reducing tile and grout cracks between floor joists. How do I remove Cement Board that has been screwed in and is bonded to wood subfloor with thinset? What type of molding/cleating should be used? Joists are 2x10 and 16". You also cant safely install tile flooring over plywood subfloor or onto an unprotected wood floor. Cement board forms a durable, stable base for tile, and it has no organic materials (unlike drywall,greenboard, or plywood) so it is not prone tomold, rot, shrinkage, or decomposition due to moisture. Tool the mortar with the knife so the tape is covered and the joints are flat and smooth. Will dry-setting the cementboard result in creaks or other noise? Thanks gents! To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. Our partners can help you compare quotes from top-rated professionals near you. Allow the mortar to cure completely, following the manufacturer's recommended drying time. Maybe overkill, but I always use a premium, modified latex thinset. Vinyl flooring glued over 1/4-in. Use 1/4-in. The purpose of thinset under cbu is not to bond the boards to the floor, but to fill any gaps/depressions in the subfloor. What Is Cement Backer Board and How Is It Used? They can't say it's worse & they should be there to make you as happy as they can. We show you how to install a first-class tile base. To determine your subfloor construction, pull off a heating grate and look at the exposed subfloor edges. Ethical implications of using scraped e-mail addresses for survey. Make sure the joists are wide enough for the span and spaced on 16 centers to provide a sturdy floor with no bounce. You can use regular thinset with a separate latex additive, or a polymer-modified thinset (just add water). 4. For less than $10/sheet, we highly recommend taking this extra step to insuring your floor will last and stay in warranty. tongue-and-groove plywood or OSB (oriented strand board). Once the tape is embedded, scrape off any excess mortar. Correctly installed is the key. If something went wrong with the installation and it wasn't done to manufacturer's specs, you can be sure you will take the blame. It is important to install cement board in strict accordance to the cement board manufacturers written instructions. Consult the cement board manufacturer for recommendations on using a moisture barrier between the board and the wall studs. Start your subscription today and save up to 70%. This guide will teach you how to install cement board on floors. Position the screws at least 1/2-inch, but no more than 2 inches, from the edge of the sheet. Cement board is used for most floor tile and has all but replaced plywood and drywall backer materials for wall-tile applications in wet areas like showers and tub surrounds. If nothing else, I think thinset is about the cheapest adhesive for the board to the plywood. Larger, 4 x 8-foot panels are also available, but their weight makes them hard to manage for DIYers. These are stickier and a little more flexible than regular thinset with water. Industry job right after PhD: will it affect my chances for a postdoc in the future? As long as they will stand behind their work and have been in business more than a few years, you should have some peace of mind in assuming they do not want to come back and fix it for free and completed the job in such a way to avoid just that. Once installed, the backer board will protect wood and plywood subfloors from water damage. The cement board is then screwed into the plywood while the thin-set is fresh/wet. cement board screws spaced every 4 in. Mix up and apply a modified thinset to a large enough area of the plywood subfloor to cover each piece of backer board using a 1/4 x 1/4 notched trowel. I prefer roofing nails to the screws for both walls and floors. Heres the right way to attach cement backer board to a plywood subfloor: Subscribe today for exclusive content & tips in your inbox! Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox. Only mix as much thin-set as you can use in a half hour and be sure to have solid support under each tile. Call Mapei tech support and get their input. It has to be rock solid before you lay the 1/2-in. Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar The main reason for using thin-set between the cement board and the subfloor isnt as much for bonding as it is for even, void-free cement board support throughout the floor. Set any proud nail- or screwheads. Comparing Plywood and OSB as a Subfloor Material. I do very little tile work but occasionally I get a request for it.FYI. While the mortar is still wet, place a sheet of backer board onto it. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. MAPEI recommends the use of MAPEI Porcelain Tile Mortar, MAPEI Large-Format Floor & Wall Tile Mortar or MAPEI Large Tile & Stone Mortar in conjunction with mesh tape recommended by the cement board manufacturer. 2022 MAPEI Corporation. the TSet under the concrete boards is to simply provide support not adhesion. I always thought mortar barely held to plywood of any kind so this kinda confuses me. what you have will work for both the hardie and tile. Reputability and integrity are important when choosing a contractor for these reasons. Your contract apparently doesn't stipulate mortar in this case. Use a wide putty knife or a flat trowel to spread thin-set mortar over the tape, making sure to knock down any ridges or high spots. Should You Install Cement Board on Concrete For Tile Installations? How to prove that both people know the same dictionary word? Apply a supporting bed of mortar or modified thinset to subfloor using a 1/4 square-notched trowel. How to Choose Exterior Paint Colors for a Home, How to Finish Drywall Around a Shower Enclosure, Reusable Flood Bags for Fast Bulk-Water Control, Keep Craft Alive Podcast: Ep.18, Kate Hersey and the Minnesota Tool Library, Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20, 10 Steps to Install Crown Molding on Cabinets, Choosing the Right Construction Tape for the Job, Pretty Good House Book Excerpt: Copper Farmhouse, 10 Dos and Don'ts for Electric In-Floor Heat, Framing Stairs to an Out-of-Level Landing, Good-Looking and Long-Lasting Traditional Gutters, The Fine Homebuilding Interview: William B. If you want to replace an old, cracked tile floor or other type of flooring with new ceramic tile, its absolutely imperative that you create a solid setting base for the new tile. Cement board can be used just as effectively on walls as it is on floors. Use of this site is subject to certain Terms Of Use. Announcing the Stacks Editor Beta release! The bottoms of the joists rest on the concrete, if there is any deflection Id be surprised. So essentially I settled. Because cement board can be used either for floors or walls, the surface below the cement board will vary: Cement board is most commonly sold in 3 x 5-foot sheets and in thicknesses ranging from 1/4 inch to 5/8 inch. Correctly installed cement board provides a very stable base thats permanently bound to the tile with thin-set mortar so your new tile floor will last a very long time. Ready to get the tools and materials you need? Using thinset between the backerboard and subfloor will create additional strength, fill in any potential gaps that exist and lessen the possibility of movement. Thats the main reason theyre a go-to choice for permanent installations like this. Fully bonded mortar means your cement board won't flex. Mapei sells the latex modifier, as well as a lot of good mortars. The offers that appear in this table are from partnerships from which The Spruce receives compensation. 1/2-in. If the fastener schedule provided is followed closely, problems are not likely to occur. We liked this installation video and thought it would be helpful, Bostik Caulks, Sealants & Specialty Products, Schluter Waterproof Substrates & Building Panels, Schluter Waterproofing & Uncoupling Membranes, Bostik Pure Silicone Sealant Portabella H184. The Following User Says Thank You to Snobnd For This Useful Post: Leo, Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum. If you do so, eventually it will crack. In an attempt to break the bond, the failure was in the plywood not the adhesive. Never use standard screws when installing cement board. The point of mortar under the hardibacker is to ensure even bedding, and good support of the hardibacker. As long as the subfloor is 3/4-in. I have a 1/2 bag of mortar thats about a year old Id like to get rid of. No extra layers of underlayment are required. Need Help? Lay the sheets so the joints in the backer board dont line up with the joints in the subfloor. Philips Bugle-Head Coarse Thread Sharp Point Drywall Screws (1 lb./Pack), FibaTape Standard White 1-7/8 in. Ceramic tile laid over cement board is one of the most durable floor or wall surfaces you can install. Sci-fi story about a reincarnating evil spirit that possesses someone from time to time, leading them to commit evil actions. You'll still need to screw it down with deck screws (1" or 1 1/4", and avoid the joists) or nail it down with roofing nails. Regular Ceramic Tile, Properly Space Your Shelves and Wall Supports, How to Convert an Acrylic or Fiberglass Shower to Tile. No studs for glass shower door - Can I hollow wall anchor? The first step is proper planning and placement. No matter what youre told at a home center, its not a good idea to install tile directly over plywood, especially in a damp area like a bathroom. What kind of sub-contractor do I use for cutting out a window in a wall that the kitchen and living room share? You have to remove the OSB and put down high-rigidity plywood, then a membrane then a cement backer board OR use a wood subfloor with a full mortar bed. In my opinion, you'll probably be satisfied with the results if only screws are used. It's not so much a matter as what's required as it's about what makes a good finished job. If it teeter-totters over any joints, use a belt sander to grind down the ridge so its even with the rest of the floor. You might also consider one of those PVA bonding agents, or mix some aliphatic resin glue in your water. Do a dry run and lay the backer board down to fully cover the area you plan to tile. But I agreed in order to keep it civil. To make round or curved cuts, use a jigsaw with a carbide blade or a drill and a hole saw bit. Home Improvement Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for contractors and serious DIYers. If the product must be embedded in thinset mortar then what is the best mortar for this and can it be the exact same mortar Ill use to set the tiles? It assures waterproof tile floors that will last for many years without cracking or other signs of damage. Layout the cement backer board at right angles to the plywood subfloor so the joints in the backer board are staggered and dont fall on joints in the plywood. Whats a Bladeless Ceiling Fan and Does It Really Work? The adhesive , in its plasticene state, would have to be rigid and hard enough to withstand the force of the screw, an inclined plane, most likely propelled by an impact driver. Get an overview of the process of creating a traditional-style fireplace that burns well and meets current building codes from experienced mason Mike Mehaffey. If thats the case, unfortunately, theres no quick fix for this problem other than removing the tile and cement backer board and starting over. This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. Am I wrong to push the issue or should I just let him use the screws and go about the job? You know it's best to ask for advice before you start, not after you finish. Doing this will require that you remove the existing surface material before installing backer board over the studs. The backerboard folks specifically specify thinset under their products. The mortar would serve to prevent any gaps between the layers of the substrate system, improving stability. Make a rough plan for the cement board sheet layout, based on the area to be covered and the size of the cement board sheets. It's useful information but doesn't answer the question. It's just not a good idea to use. Andcan I use this same modified latex thinset for setting the tiles as well?If at first you don't succeed, try usinga hammer next timeeverything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. MAPEI Primer T should be used to prime the cement board before the use of a pourable leveler. Thatll keep the floor thickness to a minimum. With Hardi's blessing, you probably have no legal standing to insist on mortar. Repeat this process, spreading mortar and laying the backer board one sheet at a time. What is the gravitational force acting on a massless body? Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page. However, many manufacturers including, both Durock and Hardiebacker not only recommend that you use thinset under their backerboard, but they specify it and will void the warranty on their product if it's not used. By the DIY experts of The Family Handyman Magazine. Don't cheap-out; buy a quality thinset. Now youre ready to begin installing backer board like a pro. Choose a sheet thicknesses based on the application: You will need to cut your cement board to various sizes to suit your project, and knowing how before you start your project can keep you from making costly errors. plywood with 5/8-in. Your answer could be improved with additional supporting information. Remove the particleboard and screw the plywood to the floor joists with 1-5/8 in. Why take the chance; thinset is easy to use and you will get the most rigid installation possible that way. i use modified thinset between my hardie and the subfloor all the time. I no longer use cement board for tile are use Detra! drywall screws spaced every 6 in. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Lay the tile in thin-set Set the tiles using the same latex-modified thin-set and techniques used for the cement board. The guide referenced above seems to be more suggestion than warranty requirement. For a timeless exterior aesthetic, consider the home, its surroundings, and your personal style. We've heard of some contractors who have been installing for years and have never used a mortar under the backerboard arguing that if you use the correct screws and enough of them there is no need for it. Or, as long as lm sure the floor wont move (deflect at all) can I just screw down the board with concrete screws and not set it in mortar? Proper installation would be to follow the manufacturers installation instructions for applying cement board to a subfloor. notched trowel and use the notched edge to comb the mortar. Leave a 1/4-inch gap between the backer board and the wall. Well.what exactly is MODIFIED thinset anyways? So I can't verify this claim. I'll add that to the post. Tell them that you can't currently confirm, so they can go ahead, but if you later find from JamesHardie that they're wrong they'll have a big rework project on their hands. I need to install 1/4 Hardibacker over 3/4 Advantech. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google. How can I refill the toilet after the water has evaporated from disuse? Cover an area just large enough for the first cement board sheet. A 3 x 5 panel of 1/4-inch cement board weighs about 30 pounds; a 1/2-inch sheet, 36 to 44 pounds. Thanks in advance for the replies. YOu can buy modified thinset, ready to mix with water. Mix a small batchof thin-setmortar as directed by the manufacturer, mixing the dry powder with water in a bucket. I envision the bead of adhesive compressing and the sub-floor and backer-board joining as one. If you did, there'd be a serious risk of rot, water damage, warping and mold. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. They skipped putting down the thin set under the cement board even though the installation instruction specify that it is required. Can I use that to set the boards? This protects your tile and grout from cracking. I used Mapei Floor Tile Mortar thinset. I know I should have staggered the boards when installing (first mistake), but just now realized I also didn't use the latex polymer additive for the thinset between the cement boards and plywood (second BIG mistake). Lee has over two decades of hands-on experience remodeling, fixing, and improving homes, and has been providing home improvement advice for over 12 years. JavaScript is disabled. You'll also learn how to use thin-set mortar to secure and level your subfloor before installing tile. Plus, your tile and grout would likely crack. tongue-and-groove material, screw the underlayment down right through the vinyl with 1-1/4-in. Stagger the board placements a bit like bricks. Drive the screws in so that the heads are slightly below the surface of the backer board sheet. It only takes a minute to sign up. It may sound daunting, but learning how to install cement board on a floor is possible even if you dont have years of DIY experience. Unlike wood or drywall sub-surfaces, cement backer board will not rot, warp or grow mold and mildew when exposed to water. You'll get a strong bond, but the adhesive will not spread out and form a continuous bed under the backer board. Standard screws and drywall joint tape will corrode or deteriorate from contact with cement board. I ask that because this floor was built over top an old concrete porch. You want a wet mix under there anyhow, since the Hardi sheets are absorbent themselves, and represent a really big tile to bed in the thinset.The thinset under the Hardi is just to resist compressive loads, so even unmodified is okay under the Hardibacker. Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine. Products shown as available are normally stocked but inventory levels cannot be guaranteed, For screen reader problems with this website, please call 1-800-430-3376 or text 38698 (standard carrier rates apply to texts), #6 x 1-1/4 in. Backed by his 40-year remodeling career, Danny served as the home improvement expert for CBSs The Early Show and The Weather Channel for more than a decade. Just an added question does anyone do anything to the plywood before the thinset? Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited. Position each piece of backer board in the thin-set, press in place, and attach using special backer board screws on the spacing recommended by the backer board manufacturer. Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features. It would help with bonding the thinset to the ply. thick cement board instead of the usual 1/2-in. Install a layer of 5/8-in. Calculating length of curve based on data points? If leveling is needed on interior cement board floors, MAPEI recommends the use of a pourable leveler such as MAPEI Self-Leveler Plus over the cement board. If you follow all these steps, youll have a stiff, monolithic, crack-free floor. Can I use unleaded fuel in PA-23 Piper Aztec? Rose, Expert insights on techniques and principles. In the end, the decision comes down to your willingness to settle for 95% quality or to deal with the dispute between yourself and your contractor. 3: Answers on All Things Painting. The purpose of the thinset under the backer board is to provide full support under the board. This seems quite shady. Score the board with a, With the smooth side of a 1/4-inch notched. This looked like a pretty helpful group with some knowledgeable guys. Bill. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Local store prices may vary from those displayed. drywall screws spaced every 4 in. It is for this reason that construction adhesive is even worse than nothing at all. Putting down cement board on top of 1/2" plywood that was on top of the 3/4" subfloor. Please, Plenty of things bond to OSB. Space the screws 8 inches apart across the entire sheet. By clicking Accept All Cookies, you agree to the storing of cookies on your device to enhance site navigation, analyze site usage, and assist in our marketing efforts. My contractor replaced old soffits and fascia with fiber cement panels. Trying to relate microphone sensitivity and SPL. Use only cement board screws and alkali-resistant cement board joint tape. Cement board, commonly sold under trade names such as Durock, Hardiebacker, and WonderBoard, is now the standard underlayment used for ceramic, porcelain, or stone tile laid with thinset mortar adhesive. underlayment. Most contractors dont use thinset just screws. Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile, Can you install Hardie Backer over plywood in shower. Self-adhesive cement board mesh joint tape. Floors: Installation instructions for cement board on floors typically include applying cement-based thin-set between the exterior-grade plywood and cement board. However, the process will involve using an extra sheet of backer board. I've always used cement screws to hold cement board to plywood; I think the manufacturers recommend them for floor installations. See attached pic. 2022 The Taunton Press, Inc. All rights reserved. At Milford Ceramic Tile, we often run specials on backerboard and thinset, sign up for our mailing list to make sure you're taking advantage of these great deals!! It is not the propermethod for installing a tile system. It sounds like the cement backer board was not attached properly to the subfloor using thin-set adhesive, screws, and fiberglass tape on the joints. Cement board on walls also uses the same techniques, but in this case, there is no layer of mortar behind the cement board as it is screwed directly into the wall studs. take it up and install plywood 3/4 or install a floating floor. You'll now have parallel lines in your thin-set. It also means that if your grout did crack and water seeped through, your subfloor would be protected by the cement board. Cement board is a good choice for most installations of tileand stone on shower walls, tub walls and floors. I have read suggestions of both modified and/or unmodified. Whenever youre laying tile on a wood subfloor, you need to first install cement backer board. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Yes, you can use the same thinset for installing your tiles. Waterproofed cement board is an excellent backing for showers and bathtub surrounds. If needed, cut the backer board to fit in small spaces or around obstructions. Each board has about 50 screws in them and all seams are tapped and mudded. You cannot put tile on OSB because it is not rigid enough. His extensive hands-on experience and understanding of the industry make him the go-to source for all things having to do with the home from advice on simple repairs, to complete remodels, to helping homeowners prepare their homes for extreme weather and seasons. If necessary, plan to start the first row of sheets with a partial sheet to create the offset. 5. I thought it was a Star Wars spin-off at first. Leave a 1/8-inch gap between each backer board sheet. I think you've misunderstood the question. The drying time is important for a strong hold. Wait 24 to 48 hours before tiling. The corners and edges of the sheets should not touch one another. you are certainly right about that, best to cover your butt and follow specs, because when the time comes you don't want to start the explanation by saying " well I just figgered. I'll be putting porcelain chevron tile on top with heated floor wire elements. Use the flat side of your notched trowel to fill the joints between the backer board sheets. This creates the built-up edge for securing bull-nose or other forms of edge tile. Installing cement board on countertops is very similar to the process used on floors, but countertops usually need an additional strip of cement board along the exposed edge of the countertop. Also since this is Advantech flooring, if I must use mortar will it adhere well to Advantech? Roofing nails are OK but certainly have a lot less holding power, and deck screws don't have big enough heads. Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange! We've updated our Privacy Policy, which will go in to effect on September 1, 2022.

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